forestofglory | The Social Life of Inkstones Read Along: Introduction

From:

*waves* I'm rhysiana! Very excited to start this read-along!

1) What do you hope to get out of reading this book? What do you hope to get out of the read along format?

I'm hoping to get lots of interesting information on a niche subject (my favorite!) and the read-along format gives me actual deadlines for reading the various chapters, which means I'm less likely to read the intro and then wander off and forget to read the rest, plus actually getting to discuss the subject matter with other interested people in a less strictly academic environment.

2) What is your experience reading academic history books?

My minor in college was modern Latin American history, and the professor who taught all those classes was really good at getting us to read everything on two levels: the content presented (ie, the actual history being discussed) and how it was presented. What was the author's goal in writing? Did they succeed in the way they chose to present their writing? I honestly think those classes taught me more about the craft of writing than any literature class I ever took.

I also took a class on ancient Chinese history that had a lot of focus on artifacts, but it was a very broad survey course, so I'm looking forward to this very specific deep dive.

3) What is your experience using an inkstone or writing languages that historically where written with inkstones?

I have taken both Chinese and Japanese, but all of my experience writing characters has been with a pen. I have been to a store selling calligraphy supplies in China, though, and seen inkstones for sale in the modern context. (Miraculously, I avoided buying one.)

4) In the introduction what did you find interesting and/or exciting?

I enjoyed the author laying out how she intends to approach the subject, and also all the tantalizing initial bits of information about the historical figures we'll be meeting. All of the discussion of the gendering of scholarship and valorization of intellectual pursuits over anything physical was also very interesting, especially after having read Jeannie Lin's Tang Dynasty Lotus Palace mystery series, in which one of the main characters is a young woman who longs to be a scholar, and discovers (through dressing as her brother) that the women with the most freedom to participate in scholarly discussions were the courtesans students preparing for the imperial exams visited regularly. See also: Sleuth and the whole exam system implications there, plus the subtleties this adds to the relationship between Tang Fan (first place exam passer, government official, of humble origins) and Sui Zhou (militarily/physically focused to the point of irritation to his family, of noble origins). I really like the interplay of knowledge gained from actual historical research and well-researched historical fiction.

From:

theladyscribe

What was the author's goal in writing? Did they succeed in the way they chose to present their writing?

I took a research methods class in grad school that asked these questions and also emphasized looking at how the writer came to their conclusions (ie, what sources they used and how they used them). That's something I always keep an eye out for in the intros and acknowledgements. Ko doesn't go into her methods in detail in the intro, though she does mention that her research was very hands-on, so I'm curious to see if we get more information on that aspect of it as the book progresses.

From:

rhysiana

Yes, I'm very interested in learning more about how she chose to approach it! (It's always so interesting to get little glimpses of the extremely niche arguments happening in an academic field about what is and is not worthy of study, or what methodology should be considered best. I once went to a lunch talk by a history prof about his new book, the translation of a small-town Japanese man's diary, and he spent 90% of the time defending the continued study of diaries and other first-person accounts rather than telling us about his actual book.)

From:

forestofglory

I think Francesca Bray and Dorothy Ko are having an argument like that! At least Bray has lot to say about Ko's work in her book, and Ko has cited Bray here as having a very broad view of what "technology" is

From:

rhysiana

Ooooh, academic drama!

From:

xmarksthespotwhereistand

The way she talks about it, makes one think we should also create an inkstone through the course of this read along.

From:

forestofglory

I would love to make and inkstone! It looks like it takes a lot of skill though

From:

cortue

Oo, those both sound like very cool classes, or a series of classes in the Latin History minor case. I wish my university would've had classes on such topics. And I appreciate your professor's focus on analyzing the author's intent and effectiveness.

What an interesting idea about the intellectual freedom of courtesans!

From:

rhysiana

They were very good classes (if depressing, in the case of modern LatAm history)!

There's a new book in the Lotus Palace series coming out soon, and I'm looking forward to seeing if I pick up on different things in it after reading this book.

From:

forestofglory

The thing about valuing scholarship over anything physical was also mentioned in Technology and Gender: Fabrics of Power in Late Imperial China by Francesca Bray which I'm reading now. Bray talks about how all women where expected to do physical labor and thus where seen as lower under this hierarchy.

I have the 1st book of the Lotus Palace Mystery and I really need to read it soon!

From:

rhysiana

So funny that the Bray book keeps crossing into our discussion here too! Clearly you themed your current reading selections well.

I hope you like the Lotus Palace book!

From:

anehan

Ooh, interesting observation about Tang Fan and Sui Zhou! This makes me want to learn more about how the exam system/civil service/ etc. thing of Chinese society worked. My background is so inadequate for this read-along that I expect the whole thing is going to be me going "oh noes, I wish I knew more about this". *g* Self-deprecation aside, I do think that's exactly what's going to happen, though it doesn't actually bother me at all.

From:

rhysiana

(Catching up on replies!)

I wouldn't worry about not having a strong history background, because that feeling of "oh, now I need to go read about this! and this!" is what drives people to history PhDs. It just never ends! I actually had a long talk with my main history professor back in college about how impossible it felt to write a thesis statement for a paper because there was so much I didn't know yet. How could I possibly write a thesis statement before I'd done most of the research reading???

From:

forestofglory

I'm excited to read this book because I love material culture as window into how people lived in the past. And I'm excited to read this as part of read along and have other people to talk about it with.

I have a little bit of formal education in history, having taken a couple of history course as part of my interdisciplinary masters degree. However I do read a lot of historical monographs for pleasure.

I have never used an inkstone, but I want to try one soon. As part of my study of classical Chinese I've practiced writing (it's helpful for learning vocab) but only with a pen. I have not been able to practice much for the last few months due to wrist pain.

I'm excited to learn more about Gu Erniang, as I'm always interested in women working in male dominated fields. I'm also very interested in the fluidity between scholars and craftsmen discussed in the introduction.

From:

cortue

Also very excited to learn more about Gu Erniang!! I felt like my impression of the introduction was the author saying she didn't want to extrapolate too much from the items she's considering in the book, but I do hope she comments more about the interplay between scholars and craftsman.

From:

rhysiana

I've really been enjoying seeing your study efforts on Twitter - very inspiring!

I'm also looking forward to finding out more about Gu Erniang. There always seems to be such a societal push to declare successful female artisans to be just "craftsmen" vs. "actual artists", and while the introduction didn't indicate Ko will be digging into that distinction so much as craftsman vs. scholar, I always end up thinking about that with women and historical material culture.

From:

forestofglory

Thanks! Posting about stuff I'm learning on Twitter always helps me keep motivated since otherwise I wouldn't get any feedback.

I know Ko's written other things that focus on gender so I think her take on Gu Erniang will be interesting.

From:

theladyscribe

Hello! I'm so glad we decided to do this!

I'm hoping to actually Finish A Book for the first time basically since the start of the pandemic. My attention span for reading has been completely shit for the past (oh god) two years, and having a deadline and people to discuss the thing with might actually get me to finish it.

As I mentioned on twitter, I have a masters degree in public history, so this sort of academic text, with a focus on material culture, is right in my wheelhouse. Ko writes in the intro (pages 4 and 5) about how following the history of the inkstone brings "a deeper understanding...[of] contending knowledge cultures, entanglements between words and things, [and] sensitivities about gender and embodied skills," and that is truly my favorite thing about material culture and public history. I love the history of Things, and how objects of usefulness can also be objects of great beauty, but they can also just be plain and simple workhorse objects.

I've never used an inkstone and haven't really done much writing in Chinese beyond what is on the Hello Chinese app. Who knows though - maybe this will spark a passion for it in me. :)

From:

cortue

I've not heard of the concept of public history before. Looking it up on wikipedia it seems to be people working in history outside of academia. So was your degree on studying the practice of history curation of history outside of university or a preparation to work in one of those fields?

From:

theladyscribe

It was a mixture of both - I took several classes in the theory of public history, which is a combination of historical curation outside academia and how to present history to the public (which go hand-in-hand, especially when thinking about the front-facing and back-office spaces of museums, archives, and historic sites), but I also took hands-on classes (my favorites were the archives class and the oral history class). Unfortunately, jobs are hard to come by, so I don't actually work in the field, but I love talking about history and all the different ways it gets presented to the public!

From:

cortue

That's such a neat field! I was reading recently about an archivist who has to decide what to keep and how to document it, especially in modern times where there can be such an excess of stuff. It did make me curious about how the guidelines of such things are developed.

From:

forestofglory

I love the history of Things, and how objects of usefulness can also be objects of great beauty, but they can also just be plain and simple workhorse objects.

Yes! to all of this!

From:

rhysiana

That degree sounds super interesting! I often wish I had done my MA in something history-related rather than linguistics-related. So glad we can read things like this now without being graded!

I love the history of Things, and how objects of usefulness can also be objects of great beauty, but they can also just be plain and simple workhorse objects.

Yes! This connects with that point in the other book forestofglory has been posting about on Twitter, Technology and Gender, where the author talked about how museum exhibits of everyday objects turn out to be some of the most popular. (I had to go re-skim the introduction to remember which book I saw that bit in. Clearly I need a copy of this other book too!)

From:

forestofglory

Technology and Gender is an older book, so there should be a bunch of used copies floating around. (Or I could ask around and see if anyone with academic access can help me get a PDF)

From:

rhysiana

I have found a used copy! I haven't ordered it, but I did find it. ;-)

From:

forestofglory

That's a good start! I got hit by a lot of stress and brain fog and have not made much progress with the book in the last couple of weeks.

From:

cortue

Hello! I am someone who's interested in history in a lot of different directions and so having someone else pick a place to start is very useful, and I'm a big fan of reading things in a group and seeing other perspectives. Especially for academic history books, which I have very little experience with. My background is largely in the physical sciences, and so it's a good challenge for me to read more history research and get some perspective on how to analyze it rather than passively consume it.

I have no experience with inkstones. I did used to be able to write quite a lot more in simplified Chinese characters (I was taking language lessons and wrote a lot of my notes in Chinese), but I've lost a lot of that and don't have much time for practice.

In addition to what's already been mentioned, I thought the comments she made about how the idea of class got fluid and how that was possibly connected to people who might otherwise have been considered high class being barred from becoming scholars.

From:

rhysiana

Re: the class fluidity point, it does sound like we'll be learning a lot about how much possible nuance there was in stuff that a lot of other texts (usually trying to cover much broader subject area) have presented as more clear-cut. Exciting! I think I've always like very specific history more than general overviews for this reason. They often pick up on so many other things incidentally as well.

From:

xmarksthespotwhereistand

When she likens these people to the inkstones in how they might gain layers of meaning. :squee: It's very interesting because there is a pretty rigid system in place (the imperial exam system) that comes with the prestige and access and yet, the idea of scholar becomes so much more fluid if we look closer. It has the layers of meanings of 'someone with knowledge of classical texts' or 'someone who actively spends their time with classical texts (instead of working, going on military pursuits, crafting or selling goods)' or 'writer of essays' and we can already see how these don't or even can't always overlap.

From:

blueshiftofdeath

Thanks for hosting this!! One sorta-chapter in and I'm already intrigued!

1. What do you hope to get out of reading this book? What do you hope to get out of the read a long format?

I would just like to know more about inkstones! Not to be boring. I just instinctively think writing implements etc. are cool (I also think fountain pens are cool even though I only have one)-- inkstones are similarly cool, plus they can be really beautiful. I also similarly really like learning about historical writing and things like that. Re: the format, I do like that that gives me a sense that I'm gaining more thorough knowledge on a subject. Also I feel like it's good for my brain!

2. What is your experience reading academic history books? (No experience necessary of course, but it's helpful for me to know for planning purposes)

I don't have a lot... I'm not sure if I've read an entire academic history book cover-to-cover before. I've read sections of such books before though (for a bunch of random subjects).

3. What is your experience using an inkstone or writing languages that historically where written with inkstones?

I've never actually used an inkstone before, although I'm sure I've seen them used before at least. My mom has calligraphy supplies (including an inkstone!) and might get back into it, so maybe I'll get to have a go at it in the near future? :D

I was forced to go to Chinese School as a child and have intermittently practiced my writing with a pen since then. So I theoretically have Lifelong experience writing Chinese, but I don't regularly write in it so my handwriting is what you'd expect (aka, not very good). I also am not close to fluent in Chinese which makes it harder.

I've gone to one (1) Real calligraphy class which was surprisingly hard lmao. It's totally different from writing with a pen. In the end I succeeded at writing a pretty good 一 though!

4. In the introduction what did you find interesting and/or exciting?

VERY excited about the protagonist craftswoman that was teased in the intro! I was a little disappointed before that since the author pretty quickly mentions how male-centric inkstone culture was, so the fact that one of the biggest names was a woman was a very pleasant surprise. I really like learning about women in history and will be happy if we get some insight on gender dynamics re: writing specifically in this book, and it seems like we will!

Also interesting is the perspective on "scholars" which the author goes into detail on. She clearly has a lot of opinions about trends in how modern historians approach Chinese history-- how they, as historians, identify more with "scholars" which impacts the kind of works that get produced about Chinese history. Meanwhile I have no idea about these trends at all, and of course that kind of insight would have never crossed my mind. It looks like we're going to get more information on all that which I'm looking forward to.

Relatedly, I'm interested in how the book as a whole seems like it will be very focused on the physicality of inkstones and the environments in which they were sourced and crafted. I feel like that make this a more memorable read, plus easier for me personally to mentally place in the real world.

Also relatedly, I'm glad it seems like we're going to get a lot of pictures! :D

From:

cortue

Oh wow, I hadn't picked up on the part about how historians write more about the people they connect with more in the introduction. It is definitely a good point to make.

From:

blueshiftofdeath

Yeah!! (For anyone reading this that can't find the part I was referring to there, it was "In the field of Chinese today, so many scholars have constructed their self-images by identifying with the Song, Ming, or Qing literati that the latter's tastes and values have predominated in research agendas as in methods of study." on page 6... hopefully I didn't misunderstand it!)

It's funny to me because I have really internalized that kind of reasoning for plenty of other things, like gender/race and Western economic classes (like I'm always thinking, "well mostly middle/upper class cishet white men did these studies, so that kind of perspective is going to be assumed in most scholarship I read"), but "scholar" as a social class isn't something I'm used to having to consider. Seems like I'm going to have to get ready for a paradigm shift as we read on...

From:

theladyscribe

Yes, I think you're spot-on with that read, and I'm like you - "scholar" as a class that would draw historians in wasn't something on my radar before she mentioned it! But it makes a lot of sense that modern-day scholars would be interested in historical scholars and might focus on them to the exclusion of other social groups. It also points to a common issue in historical research: most of the readily-available primary sources are going to be those from the upper/scholarly classes, since by and large they had both access to and the means to preserve their writings, both personal and more public works.

From:

forestofglory

Hello and welcome!

Writting implements are indeed cool.

I know the author has written other books that are more focused on gender so I'm expecting her to be aware of those kinds of issues

I've been thinking about historians identifying with scholars and if that's what I've seen in other things I've read. In some cases it is! But also right now I'm reading a book about women's lives that very much does not do that.

I love the pictures, they where one of the 1st things I noticed when my copy of this book arrived.

From:

anehan

Hello! I'm excited to be here! I found the introduction interesting and am looking forward to reading more.

I'm going into this very much blind, and I'm sure having a better understanding of Chinese history would be useful here. I did take an introductory course on East Asian history at university, but that was a decade ago. That and a few courses specifically in Japanese history are my only experience with reading academic history books.

The only thing I knew about inkstones before this came from seeing a few historical dramas: namely, that they were used to grind ink. *g* I've never used one myself and never even written with a brush. I used to know some Japanese -- I knew about 300 kanji -- but that also was a decade ago.

Nevertheless, I very much enjoyed reading the introduction. Something like the inkstone, which exists at the crossroads of craftsmanship and literary pursuits, is interesting to me. In my own life, I like practical objects that are beautiful and much prefer them over purely decorative ones, so this book should be right up my alley. I'm looking forward to learning more from both the reading and the discussions!

From:

forestofglory

Hello and welcome!

I kinda dived into the deep end with Chinese history by starting reading specialized texts without having a good overview. It's worked out for me. I tend to read history like its secondary world, that is I fill in the gaps and make connections as I go along in similar way to how I follow worldingbuilding in SFF.

And yes to practical and beautiful objects!

From:

xmarksthespotwhereistand

Hello!
I dropped out of university during my masters (literature with cultural anthropology minor for my BA) and i still miss reading seminars so this event is a gift to me.
I don't have experience with inkstones and copying characters is the part of my language studies that i neglect the most (even more than practicing talking!) due to time constraints. Though, i am afraid that i will break soon and actually acquire an inkstone. I am a big fan of the object and the topic, too, since i wrote i grieve from lovesickness. That's when i first met Ko's writing, too: i have read a review.
I usually enjoy writings about how meanings are projected on objects through social practices; Ko seems to focus on how meanings are projected on social practices through objects, i will definitely find this read stimulating. I definitely see my own prejudice to identify with the literati and the scholars in this direction of my own inquiries and that's why Ko's methodology fascinates me so much. I will try to keep an open mind and look forward to what this methodology will look like at work in the coming chapters.
These methodologies also relate to the class relations in the focus of the book: laboring with brain vs laboring with brawn, how separate these works are and what is the result of one, what is the result of the other.
It is a really interesting twist on the "discursive advantage of the scholar" then that Ko refuses to write about objects they haven't tried their hands at fabricating. That's an attitude that i have met before and it inspires me further to touch inkstones. After all, as Ko claims "even high-resolution photographs fail to capture the qualities most important to the Chinese craftsman or connoisseur: not just the form or design of the stone but the softness of touch akin to a baby's skin, the minute veins and other mineral features, and the wooden instead of metallic echo when tapped with the forefinger."
During my studies, i took some history courses, literature history or cultural history and the concept of histories ("localized and partial perspectives") instead of a history is not completely new to me, but it is a suspicion of mind that the shadow of a bigger picture will unintentionally will fall on these smaller histories and i kinda already see the hint of that.
P.s.: I just really enjoy Ko's writing for such beauties as: "It could be fashioned from kiln-fired sieved clay or other ceramics, lacquered wood, old bricks, fallen tiles, glass or semi-precious stones, but was most often made from specifically harvested stones, hewn from quarries to be designed, carved, polished, sold, commissioned, used to grind ink, washed, repaired, gifted, sold, stolen, collected, admired, studied, written on, written about, lost and forgotten." "Our guide on this tour of small worlds is an enigmatic woman, about whom much has been written about but little is known, who was one of the most accomplished inkstone makers of her days." (emphasise mine) So musical!

From:

forestofglory

Hello, welcome!

Thanks for the link to the review!

Your thoughts on how meanings being projected on objects through social practices vs meanings being projected on social practices via objects are really interesting, and I'm going to look out for that as we keep reading.

From:

brownbetty

I like to get a feel for the everyday lives of people in history, how mundane details were disposed. I'm guessing this won't give me all "everyday" people, but more "literate" people, but I'd be pleased to be wrong.

Since I'm watching Empresses in the Palace, my first real media set in the Qing dynasty, I'm going to be looking out for things I can take from this that will illuminate my watch. There was a scene where the villainous consort punishes a subordinate consort by making her grind ink, which the drama depicts as grueling! I will be excited to learn more about this.

re: academic history, I don't know that I have ever read one cover-to-cover, I think in college I probably read some very strategically by using the bibliography and reading the relevant chapter.
Never in my life have I used an inkstone. I had a calligraphy set, once, and I spilled the ink (which came in glass jar) on my parents' rug.
I'm wondering at Ko's "crafts*man*" except as applied to Gu Erniang. Surely where there is one, there might be more? I'm actually a little unclear on Ko's approach, because I feel a bit out of my depth when she talks about things like "subject positions." Like, I know what this means, more or less, but I do not feel on certain ground in this discourse.

I noticed that the "valorizing the dao, disparaging the vessels" is the same "dao" as in MDZS!

From:

forestofglory

Hello, welcome!

I know that in some contexts it was considered romantic to grind ink for someone else, but I think its exactly because it was a grueling task.

I love it when I recognize characters in different contexts!

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The Social Life of Inkstones Read Along: Introduction

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